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Will SB's just be fodder for INF/NS?

Stimmed

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Hi all,

I rolled a Inf on phoenix so wanted to try one of the other 2 come launch here. If it was old RA's I would definitely be alot more open to SB. But from what I can see Ra wise skill line wise for stuns etc they are just really far behind. Am I missing something? I would actually prefer to play SB over NS but don't want to be a second class citizen so to speak!.

Happy for any info and what people think!
 

Cadebrennus

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SBs definitely have an edge in sustained and burst damage, due to LA and 2H mechanics. RAs help but aren't the godsend you make them out to be
 

Stimmed

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I hope that's true for sure. But AP and Viper just seem super strong. Or more points and access to a possible 9 second stun later on. Even if they just helped out with off evade single stun no chain would be a decent balance move without making any drastic changes.
 
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I would say they certainly have some disadvantages in fights against the other assassin classes with old RAs. It isn't anything insurmountable, but Viper and AP are both very strong, and obviously having access to a 6, or even 9 second stun, as an Inf with 30 min purge timer is very good. SB will likely perform fine overall, but I would say the others have a slight advantage overall. Personally I would pick NS, but I also always main Hibernia, so I am thinking about rolling Alb this time
 

Cadebrennus

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Even as an inexperienced SB player on Phoenix I had a 50% kill ratio vs NS and Infil (NF RAs I know), and a 100% kill ratio on all targets that I used CS openers on. I think that SBs will be fine here.
 

Process

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The only thing that SBs had working to their advantage in classic was the fact that, originally, they had access to all of the charge items whereas infs and NS's did not. Now that charge items have been equalized across all 3 realms, SBs will be the weakest assassin with all else being equal. On 30 min purge, you are at a major disadvantage vs the style arsenal of NS and Inf. And while RAs are not as determinant as some think, they still are almost an "I win" button for the Inf and NS when used.
 

Dstap21

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Till higher rr sb's were always a little behind.. getting 39 la for the stun but that means lacking in cs.
but again the others have evade stun sure but pretty much no use if they land pa/cd .. i like sb the best but will see once the i50 comes out .. how it sounds and how it performs are usually totally different. But ill be on my sb afk for 30 minutes for purge rofl.. Nah jk never been a timer junky but in the 44 bg i did fine on sb but have to see once dragonfang comes out.. Its not the infs that are op'd its them grouped with the mini that is a pita to be honest. Just feels more rewarding wining a fight on sb then the other 2.
 

Cadebrennus

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Till higher rr sb's were always a little behind.. getting 39 la for the stun but that means lacking in cs.
but again the others have evade stun sure but pretty much no use if they land pa/cd .. i like sb the best but will see once the i50 comes out .. how it sounds and how it performs are usually totally different. But ill be on my sb afk for 30 minutes for purge rofl.. Nah jk never been a timer junky but in the 44 bg i did fine on sb but have to see once dragonfang comes out.. Its not the infs that are op'd its them grouped with the mini that is a pita to be honest. Just feels more rewarding wining a fight on sb then the other 2.
Interesting. I was never 39+ LA on my SB and yet I still was around a 50% win/loss rate vs NS/Infils. I was 50 Axe and various levels of CS/Envenom (sometimes 39 CS, sometimes 15 to 18)
 

naezgul

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I always was high dual wield in all 3 assassins with low cs(bs2)
It was really nice for ns with the side stun and sb for applying poisons
 

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On Phoenix Sbs did get a lot stronger with higher RRS. But NF Ra's means almost ALL had at least 7 min purge timer. Meaning you cant just throw out a stun had to actually try and use it in a way that wouldn't just cost you all your poisons straight up and had to reapply instantly. SBS when they got rr7+ were a lot tougher. Specially I was Thrust Inf so damage tables favored them. But here with AP Viper Dragonfang DB Vanish. You can throw your stun at any time knowing good chance its not up and just unload. That's the main issue I feel. If they changed SBS to have an evade stun single not follow on chain and it was 6 second odd I wouldn't think they would be as sub par.

In saying this there is always those players that excell. On average the general stealther my win rate was high. But there was those 3-4 NS or SB where I was either even I was slightly behind. Either way ill just have to make friends on MID/HIB to help me gear both perhaps!.
 

Cadebrennus

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That's what I like about the SB. When it comes to pure poison application you don't need high LA. That's a huge advantage that no one takes advantage of
 

Stimmed

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Yeah but you COULD just rng and do it just as good with CD/DW. Also higher rr you got like 40%+ OH attach chance so the bonus there becomes less and less. But they will still have no reliable stun or good ras :/
 

Saroi

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On Phoenix Sbs did get a lot stronger with higher RRS. But NF Ra's means almost ALL had at least 7 min purge timer. Meaning you cant just throw out a stun had to actually try and use it in a way that wouldn't just cost you all your poisons straight up and had to reapply instantly. SBS when they got rr7+ were a lot tougher. Specially I was Thrust Inf so damage tables favored them. But here with AP Viper Dragonfang DB Vanish. You can throw your stun at any time knowing good chance its not up and just unload. That's the main issue I feel. If they changed SBS to have an evade stun single not follow on chain and it was 6 second odd I wouldn't think they would be as sub par.

In saying this there is always those players that excell. On average the general stealther my win rate was high. But there was those 3-4 NS or SB where I was either even I was slightly behind. Either way ill just have to make friends on MID/HIB to help me gear both perhaps!.
The problem in giving SB a direct off evade stun is that it not just affects the stealth fights, but it also helps them a great deal vs everything else. Personally I think no Sin should have ever gotten a direct evade stun, seeing as they reach or nearly reach evade cap for free.

It is hard to tell how it will end up at 50, best would be to test i50 here. Dragonfang for example is indeed strong and landing it without purge should mean death, as there is no reaction timer on this patch level and so far I haven't heard there would be changes. So Inf can spam 9 seconds with Harmstring + Leaper, which deals a great amount more damage than Garotte/Achilles.

Nightshade has strong actives, but they are also on a high cooldown. Most unlikely you always fight a Nightshade with those RA's. Personally I would be more worried about Wild Arcana. As this can make Lifebane and also enervating poison crit. Lifebane as a dot is not restricted by the normal 50% crit damage cap. So it can crit from 1 to 100% and a 100% crit would basically mean viper damage.

In Any case, evade is also lower here in a Sin vs Sin fight compared to Phoenix. Even if you go Dodger 5, DW cut is after the cap so either way you can never have over 25% evade vs. dw. So in any case, Dodger really just helps you vs. the normal enemy def penetration.(Like some would say weaponskill, which is not completely accurate as the stats affecting this would be damage table, weaponskill, main weapon stats) In the beginning it will take some time to go higher dodger. In any case it would also be a question if that is really affective since you can maybe reach cap evade vs. other classes already and then you will actually lose points. At the beginning/low RR the evade chance will most likely be something around 16%-18%. (45% base evade - something like 10-12% weapon penetration to reduce evade and then another 1/2 reduction from DW).

This is for one a reason why dodger got removed on live. Sins were already on evade cap and did not get much evade from dodger, unless they really fought Fulltanks who had a higher def penetration. Seeing as Sins are the main evade class, other classes like Archers, Lighttanks or Friar got way more benefit from Dodger and that was not intended.

Dodger is something that is indeed a bit weird. I would like to see it removed, as this would ofc bring more balance to the Sin fight. However, you then have the problem that Archers and Friars will be hard against it. Removing it just from Sins and letting it be on others will also not really be fair.
 

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Yup Damn didn't even consider WA. Meaning another reason NS are considered the strongest. This will only come into effect when you could get it all obviously rr7+ you will start getting AP/WA then into Viper at a much higher. Some of these abilities are so strong though for sin fights you can easily stagger them. So Pop AP for one fight Viper for the next etc. Or blow it all and good luck losing if everything is up. Not sure how they can balance it like you said.

I would be happy if they made all sins not have single evade chains just have 2 chain. Making it a bit more fair all around. But who knows if that would help or what :/
 

Dstap21

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Yeah but you COULD just rng and do it just as good with CD/DW. Also higher rr you got like 40%+ OH attach chance so the bonus there becomes less and less. But they will still have no reliable stun or good ras :/
a second style evade chain is pretty reliable. if you cant get a 2 part chain off well ouch.. 40% chance is good but sb is 100 so you should always have every posion on your enemy after a couple swings... but that is one reason LIVE finally gave sb (la) the side stun but that will probly not happen here and dragonfang and dimondback are now 2 part chains but ya.. sb don't have all the toys but will still be my main cant wait for i50 to see and yes ra's /sad
And hey meggles nice to see a familiar face lol ...
 

Siouxsie

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Inf gets Dragonfang 9 sec stun and more skill points
NS gets castable DDs and viper
SB gets.... ?

Seems to me SB will be weakest of the 3 assassins. SB used to have some advantages, like 2H perf, and decent left axe chain styles, but if this isn't going to happen it probably won't be worth playing since any Inf/NS who doesn't faceroll the keyboard will end up killing you.

Midgard as a whole seems to have a lot of disadvantages vs the other 2 realms especially at this patch level. 👎
 

bilowywhistle

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SB gets nerfed LA style damage thanks to patch 1.62. I agree Siouxsie, Midgard as a realm is just at a disadvantage at this patch level and I honestly remember it being that way back in 03. Anecdotally, I recall a steady stream of balance changes by Mythic providing buffs to Albion and Hibernia and nerfs to Midgard so it doesn't seem surprising that would be reflected on this server coming in at patch level 1.65; the one heralded as the golden age of DAOC, just not for Midgard.

I already made a post about AB being changed for SBs to match the change being made for Berserkers, but since it wasn't made for SBs at this patch level it is unlikely that will happen sadly. I'm hoping maybe to spec full SZ and take advantage at lower RR on live of Infs & NS as they will be saving up for Viper/Vanish meanwhile we have nothing worthwhile to spend on so getting MOP early lol
 

phixion

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I always felt considerably weaker on my SB on Phoenix than Infs and NS's. The only thing that allowed me to beat them was higher RR.

The lack of stuns is killer, especially when Infs get that 9s stun off evade.

2h PA was never worth using on Phoenix due to the huge delay between PA and your next swing and crap 2h damage. Unless 2h damage is rectified here, it will remain gimped.
 

Siouxsie

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I always felt considerably weaker on my SB on Phoenix than Infs and NS's. The only thing that allowed me to beat them was higher RR.

The lack of stuns is killer, especially when Infs get that 9s stun off evade.

2h PA was never worth using on Phoenix due to the huge delay between PA and your next swing and crap 2h damage. Unless 2h damage is rectified here, it will remain gimped.
Phoenix nerfed the hell out of 2H on SBs and the fact that spell damage seemed higher than usual gave nightshades a massive boost (if you recall, the top 10 stealthers on Phoenix were nightshades following by a smattering of some infs and maybe 1-2 SBs)

Then it became a race to see who could swing the fastest to reapply poisons.
 

bilowywhistle

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Didn't the Phoenix devs just flat out nerf PA and BS damage too? It wasn't just a 2h problem, they just wanted to make it impossible for an assassin to 1shot anything. Seems like the devs here at Atlas are committed to a true to 1.65 experience so I think we should see some nice PA numbers.
 
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