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Thoughts on Archers so far?

Stewbeedoo

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I've played Hunter and Ranger so far and find them very weak. They are low RR (1L9 and 2L1) and I've found it pretty hard to progress solo. I've gotten most of my solos killing sneaks and casters. I've won 1 fight against a tank or hybrid - a zerker.

My concern is that even with no buff pots at present solo archers seem pretty uncompetitive. So once we go live with buff pots it will only get worse. The typical comment seems to be "yeah of course self-buffed rangers/hunters will lose against any un-buffed class". Is that really ok? I just got pulverized by a Reaver after getting 3 arrows in him before the fight for 400+ damage. Given block rates that was pretty much the best case scenario for me with the bow, before we get into melee. The fight was not even close.

I get that grouped archers are a problem in the game, but is it really the intent that solo archers are complete fodder?

It's been a long time, but I don't remember archers being this gimp on Live. I played on Live Classic around 2005 and Rangers at the time could spec Physical Defense. This was later removed because Rangers were considered too OP.

Anyway, thoughts? And I mean other than "git gud" stuff.
 

Nuggles

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Oh buddy, if you think that's rough, you should try a solo scout. ;) To me it feels like hunter melee damage was a bit outrageous when compared to hunters that I've played over the years. Rangers will always out damage scouts and hunters just because of the slower bow and self buffs. As far as the shield classes go, were you not able to just kite the reaver and pluck away as you ran?
 

Saroi

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I think the biggest problems that Archers have is that basically your highest dmg (crit shot) is pretty useless. Back in the day you had more people not moving around that much, that is why you had Archers being able to shot targets at the Mile Gates from Hills etc. Also Endu pot was on a 2 min CD so solo or small mans weren't able to sprint 24/7.

Now you practically need to find an afk to land it. So if you manage to find someone to land crit shot on that target and win/kill him, it is safe to say you would have won even without it.

I wouldn't mind if they find some way to change the criteria. Even a slight change like it is possible to crit shot a running target would be enough and then add crit shot immunity for more arrows. All other criteria can stay (no crit shot on mezz, stunned or in swing delay). Giving that everyone has access to perma sprint which is a huge nerf for crit shot there is something that needs to be done.

As for stuff like Reaver. In a normal case, it does not matter what you do, there is no way you will win vs. a Reaver. Giving also in this state, all his spells have 2 different tiers with different cd timers they are an interrupt Monster. For Range that would also be 2x dots and 2x insta LT. The dots also keep you in combat so there will be no restealthing. With 50 Slam and Levi it will just get worse. Never touch a Reaver.
 
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Stewbeedoo

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Oh buddy, if you think that's rough, you should try a solo scout. ;) To me it feels like hunter melee damage was a bit outrageous when compared to hunters that I've played over the years. Rangers will always out damage scouts and hunters just because of the slower bow and self buffs. As far as the shield classes go, were you not able to just kite the reaver and pluck away as you ran?
Not a fan of the kiting archer style - especially in CV you are probably just going to kite into enemies.
 

Stewbeedoo

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I think the biggest problems that Archers have is that basically your highest dmg (crit shot) is pretty useless. Back in the day you had more people not moving around that much, that is why you had Archers being able to shot targets at the Mile Gates from Hills etc. Also Endu pot was on a 2 min CD so solo or small mans weren't able to sprint 24/7.

Now you practically need to find an afk to land it. So if you manage to find someone to land crit shot on that target and win/kill him, it is safe to say you would have won even without it.

I wouldn't mind if they find some way to change the criteria. Even a slight change like it is possible to crit shot a running target would be enough and then add crit shot immunity for more arrows. All other criteria can stay (no crit shot on mezz, stunned or in swing delay). Giving that everyone has access to perma sprint which is a huge nerf for crit shot there is something that needs to be done.

As for stuff like Reaver. In a normal case, it does not matter what you do, there is no way you will win vs. a Reaver. Giving also in this state, all his spells have 2 different tiers with different cd timers they are an interrupt Monster. For Range that would also be 2x dots and 2x insta LT. The dots also keep you in combat so there will be no restealthing. With 50 Slam and Levi it will just get worse. Never touch a Reaver.
I hear you - never touch a Reaver. The problem is that you also can't touch a Minstrel, Skald, Champion, Paladin, Friar, Warrior, Hero, etc.

Archers get a lot of hate for grouping and killing folks with bow assist, but unless you really enjoy /release it seems like this is the only option.

Well there is another option - don't play archers at all if you want to solo. Unfortunate if you like the archer archetype in MMOs.
 

Cadebrennus

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Honestly, being an /assist dps and primary interrupter in a Visi group are the two best ways to be a team player and to have fun
 

Idi

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I get that grouped archers are a problem in the game, but is it really the intent that solo archers are complete fodder?
Apparently so. People complain about getting crit shot for half their HP's by solo archers that spec entirely for bow damage, which in turn gets their bow damage nerfed requiring them to group to actually kill anything, then people complain about groups of archers killing things. Meanwhile, nobody bats an eye when a caster debuff train kills a heavy tank before they can even I.P. sometimes.

Just the nature of the beast.
It's been a long time, but I don't remember archers being this gimp on Live. I played on Live Classic around 2005 and Rangers at the time could spec Physical Defense. This was later removed because Rangers were considered too OP.

Anyway, thoughts? And I mean other than "git gud" stuff.
Archery didn't start to get thrashed until around the time of ToA. It's been a rollercoaster ride of effectiveness since then ranging from OP to gimp throughout the years, and it got to the point where I've resigned myself not to even bother anymore outside of creating an all bow spec archer to use as an /assist bot at keep sieges. Nothing I have seen so far playing a ranger using a variety of specs on Atlas has changed my opinion, and I doubt anything here ever will.
 

Kentavious

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I didn't mind it too much prior to the recent patch that made interruptions last a long time. I used to be able to draw crossbow after shield stun and it worked pretty well. Now? Forget about it, class killed.
 

Laadna

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Back in the days (OF), my 8L ranger wouldn't ever engage a shield bearer above RR3, and I would forget any hybrid with a shield (because once they would face me, I would be interrupted and unable to land any hit). Even a fresh 50. Killing these would be a bet on their stupidity (not facing and engaging, not interrupting, not sprinting...), and killing someone just because they are stupid isn't anything close to satisfying.

Atop of that, reaver is probably the worst hybrid to engage as an archer : trained shield, lots of instant ranged interrupts (including a dot and a pbaoe to cut any desire of kiting/hide and seek), lots of melee damage.

Cant' kill a reaver as a ranger/hunter ? Working as intended to me.

Try a solo berserker, that's probably the only melee archer can do at these low RR.
 

Cadebrennus

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Apparently so. People complain about getting crit shot for half their HP's by solo archers that spec entirely for bow damage, which in turn gets their bow damage nerfed requiring them to group to actually kill anything, then people complain about groups of archers killing things. Meanwhile, nobody bats an eye when a caster debuff train kills a heavy tank before they can even I.P. sometimes.

Just the nature of the beast.

Archery didn't start to get thrashed until around the time of ToA. It's been a rollercoaster ride of effectiveness since then ranging from OP to gimp throughout the years, and it got to the point where I've resigned myself not to even bother anymore outside of creating an all bow spec archer to use as an /assist bot at keep sieges. Nothing I have seen so far playing a ranger using a variety of specs on Atlas has changed my opinion, and I doubt anything here ever will.
Archery nerfs (not in order of implementation, and only the ones I can remember off the top of my head)

/face
Self casted BT
Nearsight
Spec AF for all
Archery damage reduction


These were all specifically to nerf Archers. The Archery damage reduction is particularly heinous because in Classic and due to Scout players used bots against unbuffed players, Archery was then balanced in the following scenario: Botted Archery damage vs unbotted target. Guess what happened later when everyone had bots? Nothing. They never increased Archery damage back up to re-compensate
 

Cadebrennus

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Also, Archers need to stop playing like soloers and play like team players instead. (I'm talking about with Visis, not stealthzergs)

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Stewbeedoo

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Back in the days (OF), my 8L ranger wouldn't ever engage a shield bearer above RR3, and I would forget any hybrid with a shield (because once they would face me, I would be interrupted and unable to land any hit). Even a fresh 50. Killing these would be a bet on their stupidity (not facing and engaging, not interrupting, not sprinting...), and killing someone just because they are stupid isn't anything close to satisfying.

Atop of that, reaver is probably the worst hybrid to engage as an archer : trained shield, lots of instant ranged interrupts (including a dot and a pbaoe to cut any desire of kiting/hide and seek), lots of melee damage.

Cant' kill a reaver as a ranger/hunter ? Working as intended to me.

Try a solo berserker, that's probably the only melee archer can do at these low RR.
Ironically my one hybrid solo kill here was Twigs the zerker, so you are spot on there. On Phoenix I got to RR9, so my rule of thumb was don't attack hybrid / shield classes past rr4. I question whether that is really "working as intended". As an RR9 melee ranger is it really logical that attacking an RR4 Merc/Reaver is suicide?
 

naezgul

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Ironically my one hybrid solo kill here was Twigs the zerker, so you are spot on there. On Phoenix I got to RR9, so my rule of thumb was don't attack hybrid / shield classes past rr4. I question whether that is really "working as intended". As an RR9 melee ranger is it really logical that attacking an RR4 Merc/Reaver is suicide?
Why not?
Daoc was heavily a rock/paper/scissor system.
Some engagements with a divisive edge/advantage
 

Aph

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I guess any casters without nearsight/pbt is a decent target, maybe not bd/enchanter.
 

Cadebrennus

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Interesting analogy. So if an archer is scissor who is paper in your thinking?
It used to be casters who were the paper, but they whined. That's why /face, self casted BT, and Nearsight went into the game.

It used to be like this, and was specifically designed this way:

rock = Tanks
paper = Casters
scissors = Stealthers

As you can see, removing one from that chain via nerfs and also from players' own preference for soloing disrupted that balance, leading to this game on Live being called "Dark Age of Castalot" for years.
 

naezgul

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I had little issue with most casters on live until they got brittle guards.
But damage has been reduced(because of the groups) in shards while af buffs the norm. So they are in bad place now. But it was always rough on shield users and VW if they were aware.
 

Cadebrennus

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I had little issue with most casters on live until they got brittle guards.
But damage has been reduced(because of the groups) in shards while af buffs the norm. So they are in bad place now. But it was always rough on shield users and VW if they were aware.
I totally forgot about Brittle Guards. They were also put in specifically as an Archer nerf. Archers got wise to the self-casted bubble and were doing the first shot to pop bubble then Critshot, and then Casters whined again. That's why Brittle Guards were implemented
 

DJ2000

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This is DaoC.
And in the entire Game's History, there was not a single moment when/where nobody was complaining about something. Not once.
Not a single class, nor archetype or realm. There was always and constant complaints (as you call it "whine") about almost everything from everyone.
Just as you or me are doing it now, as others did back then; a constant back-and-forth as every change was implemented. Rightfully or not.

The Analogy (rock-paper-scissors) was never something they tried to actively pursued with their patches, you can read them up, they were mostly about fulfilling their own (power-)fantasy they initially conceptualized. They handed out abilities because they considered them fun or cool, or part of their initial idea or theme; and not because they needed it to perform a specific role or something like that.

Balance was also considered only as an afterthought and took a more valued role only after a couple of years in.
Perfect balance was never achieved at any given point.
Perfect balance was never on their agenda to begin with.

Here we are in 2021 trying to pick a certain time period as a base, patch 1.65, and try to make the best of things (in this case Archers/Ranged in general) that was simply never given prior or later in the game's lifespan, so you just end up with something in-between.

There are positives to have never any form of stagnation of the status quo, as there are also certainly negatives, but people don't care about that. What they want is (to gain) advantages and to never lose them (again). ("...always been like this....")
Always about gaining something, never about losing something.

If there are meant to do something specific, then they are meant to tip on someone toe while doing it, thus they complain.
If they are not meant to do something specific and just simply exist, then again it will just turn into complaints by the Archers.

If there ever had been a true balance of some form for Archers, then it would have been easy to adjust it, but there never was.
It was always just an additions/subtraction of advantages from one/their side to the other/others.

And just as a reminder: Archers are Ranged/Melee by concept.
Playing them only Ranged or Melee is only a player's choice.
Just as it is to run solo or with other people into battle.
 

Idi

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If there ever had been a true balance of some form for Archers, then it would have been easy to adjust it, but there never was.
Prior to RA's and ToA, archers could kill cloth casters and support without having to group. After, not so much. RA's that increased caster speed, damage, heals, and provided insta heals and uninteruptable casting via concentration and MoC pretty much made casters a greater risk to engage than heavy tanks and hybrids, while support could simply run away or hit you with CC. That's not right, and never has been.

This game has always seemed to cater to casters and support, for some reason, at the expense of pretty much every other melee and stealth class. They implemented bubbles that stop a single melee attack, but where is the melee char version that stops a single casted attack? I always like the idea of playing a melee character in this game, but I came to realize that it's not really worth it compared to investing time in a caster or support class, as they're constantly nerfing the #%*@ out of melee damage and abilities in one form or another, while ignoring CC, cast speed, damage, and debuffs from the various caster chars that exist in the game.

It is what it is...
 

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