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Thane

DJ2000

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Let's have some Discussion about one of the most iconic classes of Midgard, the Thane.

Build, Gear, RA ...
Solo, Duo, small, 8man ...
 

DJ2000

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I didn't want to put a lot of text into the opener, as anything i am going to write here is subject to change.
Just in case if anything i write here happens to become irrelevant in the future, the opener stays clean.

OK, let's talk about the current 8man landscape for the Thane, and why it is non-existing.

The Thane has nothing to offer for 8man. Period.

The Thane can not fight for a spot of a Berserker or Savage.
Whatever the Thane can offer, is done better by the Warrior.
That is the problem.

Same Armor, Less HP, same Hammer Styles, Less WS, less Det, worse RA.

Unlike the Champion's "Valor", the Thane's "Stormcalling" is useless for 8man.

The Damage part of Stormcalling:
Castable DDs and instant DDs with 1500 Range are the good parts.
The castable AoE and instant Pbaoe are rather forgettable in a 8man setup and i won't even mention them again.
The Damage Type is Energy. Mid setups (caster/hybrid) is Cold, which means that doesn't mesh well.
The delve is rather low on each of these.
3,0 Casting time isn't that great, but it is fine to 'rupt somebody.
Spell attribute can not be buffed by the shaman to increase the damage, unlike for BD, SM and RM.
Mana costs and the lack of "spell focus" result in killing the own mana bar, before killing anything else that isn't lower level.
Yeah, the damage part is pointless. And when the damage part is pointless, then this means there is no reason to go high in Stormcalling.
Or in other words: 8 Stormcalling is all that is needed to get all the spells needed for occasional interrupt, and that would also alleviate the problem with the mana costs.

The Buffs in Sotrmcalling:
Str/con and a damage add. Both useless, as they can and will be provided by the Shaman and/or the Skald of the Group.
Putting 46-50 into Stormcalling just so you can use your own buffs is a complete waste.
The fact that higher levels of the DD spells are also useless, for various reasons, doesn't help either.

So you end up with a Thane, which defining Skill is the Stormcalling line, that has barely points in said line.
(The Reaver shares a similar fate)

What else is there? Hammer.
Hammer has great utility, yes, but every melee in Midgard has access to it, so nothing to offer here.
The thane does have the hammer line on a higher damage table than the other lines, yet it still is lower than that of a Warrior, again nothing to offer here as well.

Realm Abilities? When compared with the Warrior? Let's check:
- Purge, Ignore Pain, Determination3 - solid base for a Hybrid.
- Armor of Faith - this is something the Thane has over the Warrior
- Aug. Acuity, Serenity, Ethereal Bond, MCL - sure...
- Static Tempest - No. No. nonononono.- no.
This is OF ST, not NF ST. It is an instant AoE 3sec stun, that grants 1minute immunity afterwards, it ticks every 7sec afterwards 4 more times.
No, it stuns only ONCE, and does not ignore stun immunity (like NF ST).
14p for an instant version of a LVL1 spell of the Healer; and the Healer's lvl1 spell lasts 6sec. Just sayin'.
- Prevent Flight - nope
- Trip, Grapple - nope. (The Paladin has it. Champion, Reaver, Thane don't)
- Avoid Pain - nope. (The Paladin and the Champion have it. Reaver and Thane don't)

So yeah, what CAN the Thane offer that the Warrior can't ?
+ An instant spell interrupt
The cast interrupt when standing in CC? Yes. The warrior can't do that.
Technically, the Warrior could use "Throwing Weapons", but he wouldn't be standing in CC anyway.

That's it.
50 Hammer, 50 Shield, 27 Parry and 10 Stormcalling.

You would have to go out of your way to include a Thane over a Warrior in your setup. Even then he would have to play as Warrior mostly, and not as a Thane.

If Stormcalling could offer something of value to an 8man setup, then it might be different, but as of now, the strength of this class is not being utilized while being part of an 8man.

Solo, duo or small, even in Zerg warfare, that is where the Thane can shine, thanks to the fact that he can make use of his abilities within Stormcalling.
 
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Eli

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It should be NF ST imo. Or rework it so it is a useful RA. I still don't think a NF ST will get thane in many groups, but some.
 

DJ2000

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For Zerg it is still kinda useful.
It may not stun someone with an immunity timer, but it does 'rupt on subsequent ticks. ~30 sec duration.
But it is still a bad investment and ability, only slightly better than the SB's "Shadow Run".

I can't see them touching any of the OF RAs besides the controversial one(s).
 

Skorpa

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For Zerg it is still kinda useful.
It may not stun someone with an immunity timer, but it does 'rupt on subsequent ticks. ~30 sec duration.
But it is still a bad investment and ability, only slightly better than the SB's "Shadow Run".

I can't see them touching any of the OF RAs besides the controversial one(s).
I'd say controversy is what initiates change. There's plenty of reasons why Mythic eventually revamped the RA system to what we know as NF RA's. It's because OF RA's where imbalanced. Some incredibly weak and others incredibly strong.
 

DJ2000

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Yeah, i think that was definitely one of the reasons.
Atlas will be OF setting, so this is what the Thane has to work with.
 

sehenry

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I totally agree. Pheonix made Thanes much harder hitting with spells so you couldn't ignore the DD's from them, but if Atlas keeps them remotely similar to classic, Thane will be useless except in PvE.

The single advantage thane has is the ability to interrupt when rooted or from a distance.

I hope Atlas does something, I have always loved the idea of the thane, but they have a reputation for breaking CC so no one wants them.
 

Morry101

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Not every class was balanced around '8-man'. Thanes had several issues at this patch level unfortunately. At least they made the announcement of allowing hybrids Det 3, but sadly any Det 5 class will walk into the group long before a Thane does - is that really the patch level's fault / developers fault? or is it actually the elitist playerbases fault who are only interested in 8-man etc. It is fine to be like that and only enjoy really competitive group on group, but there used to be a whole swathe of people who were much more casual. And THAT is where hybrids fitted in a lot - the pure chaos of the zerg or keeps / mass battles.

I appreciate that not only the game, but the playerbase of the game has moved on.

Not sure what the answer is, only that det 5 or bust isn't it imho. If it is going to be that way then just delete those classes from the game basically, all because of one RA......
 

DJ2000

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nah, i don't think the Thanes needs det5. Wouldn't even change that much for the Thane tbh.

There are other playstyles, besides 8man, for the Thane to enjoy. No need to keep this topic locked on 8man only.
Calling upon Mjölnir till your mana runs out or smashing someone's head in is more fun, than running around in a circle and playing tag.
 

Fey

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This reminds me of the sundry whine threads about Iron breaker on the RoR forums. Clearly the Thane isn't for you. Play something else.
 

sehenry

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BTW, for me this has nothing to do with 8-mans. This is a problem for Thanes with everyone except solo.

The tools they have are just incredibly limited as far as RvR. Sure, for solo they get a nice dmg add and good str/con buff and some instant dd's making them a very tough 1 on 1 fight for some people, but group based including small man, 8-man, or even zerg, they just don't offer much.

Their DD spells are just incredibly lacking. I have never once ran into a mid group and thought, uh oh, they have a thane!!! Quite the opposite, I am encouraged it will be a newer player that will be AoEing/DDing as much as they can because I know that as long as I am decently temp'ed, I have no fear of their spell dmg. The slam is obviously something to be worried about, along with the snare from hammer, but I will not be worried enough to pay attention, unlike a warrior that I have to respect more.

With Det3, VW's hit like a mac truck, champs will be debuffing, and thanes will be...well breaking mezzes or being a minor nuisance.
 

DJ2000

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I do think that Thanes are still fine in small and zerg engagements. Well, besides solo obv.

Magic Damage is definitely on the weaker side, still have their selfbuffs and utility to act outside of melee range.

Later on Mythic did focus more on the Weapon line with the style/DD procs, which i think seems more fitting, but it wasn't a thane-only change.
 

jlxharville

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I'd certainly rather play a VW compared to thane, ranged lifetaps, scythe damage, procs.

I doubt a majority of the community would be against a small change for thanes, but in the end, I think good players will excel at whatever they play. Had my butt handed to me by the most unexpectedly stupid crap before, I'd argue DAoC is 70% skill, 30% mechanics. In any competent 8v8 battle just kiting the wrong way for a few split seconds on almost any class = death.
 

Cadebrennus

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I totally agree. Pheonix made Thanes much harder hitting with spells so you couldn't ignore the DD's from them, but if Atlas keeps them remotely similar to classic, Thane will be useless except in PvE.

The single advantage thane has is the ability to interrupt when rooted or from a distance.

I hope Atlas does something, I have always loved the idea of the thane, but they have a reputation for breaking CC so no one wants them.
Using that criteria they're no different than an Alb or Hib Tanks' shortbows or crossbows (same range). However Thanes do more damage at range and have the ability for multi-interrupts (or mezz breaks lol)
 

Remedee

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Later on Mythic did focus more on the Weapon line with the style/DD procs, which i think seems more fitting, but it wasn't a thane-only change.
I would love to see the Atlas team doing something like this, the procs made thane semi viable again. I for one would not turn away a thane in a RvR group but that's just me being anon Elitist. But yeah I believe that the Procs are a QoL change that needs to be done.
 

DJ2000

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I liked them too, they just felt more fitting for a Thane. They will be out of question here on Atlas though.
 

Remedee

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I liked them too, they just felt more fitting for a Thane. They will be out of question here on Atlas though.
Which is sad really when VW's get procs, i know thane gets shield etc but I mean what's more Thaney than lightning striking when you hit someone with a hammer!
 
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Which is sad really when VW's get procs, i know thane gets shield etc but I mean what's more Thaney than lightning striking when you hit someone with a hammer!
I don't play a ton of Midgard, but I entirely agree here. The casting speed increase, range increase, energy debuff proc, and style procs were all great for Thane and made them much more enjoyable
 

sehenry

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I don't play a ton of Midgard, but I entirely agree here. The casting speed increase, range increase, energy debuff proc, and style procs were all great for Thane and made them much more enjoyable
And not just enjoyable, but in RvR it would simply make them more relevant. Thane from classic will be one of the most dumped on classes and left out in the cold in RvR except for zergs.
 
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