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Restore Ice Storm to NS/Ranger - it existed in 1.62

Cadebrennus

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Ice Storm side stun existed for all CD classes in 1.62 - it just wasn't documented for all CD classes in the 1.62 patch notes.


Larian la Quella's Ranger Guide

"(updated May 2002)"

Note: May 2002

"
18Ice StormMedium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit
"



03AUG2002 Wayback Machine's capture of the TL site and his Ranger Guide:


You can download his guide and see that he also lists;

"18 Ice Storm Medium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit"



"Thread from June 2003. A comparison betweeen the three assassin classes. First post, under "stun styles": *Celtic Dual
18 Ice Storm To side of target Medium bonus Medium High Stunned"



Post 1.62...Assasin Classes are not Balanced.​


"Stun Styles
SB:
Level Name Prerequisite
*Axe
8 Thrym's Strength Cleave
(4 Cleave You parry Medium bonus Low Medium Slowed)
34 Midnight Sun Valkyrie's Shield
(21 Valkyrie's Shield You block Medium bonus Low Medium)

*Sword
39 Niord's Fury Frost Cut
(4 Frost Cut You block Low bonus Low Medium Bleeding)

*LA
39 Frosty Gaze Comeback
(18 Comeback You evade Medium bonus Low Low)


Note: SB's have no parry and rarely spec shield

NS:
*Blades
21 Horizon Blade You block Medium bonus Low bonus Low High Stunned
(Have yet to see an NS with a shield)

*Pierce
25 Diamondback You evade Medium bonus Medium bonus Low Medium Stunned

*Celtic Dual
18 Ice Storm To side of target Medium bonus Medium High Stunned

Inf:
*Slash
34 Befuddler Riposte Medium bonus Medium Medium Stunned
(18 Riposte You block Medium bonus Medium bonus Low High)

*Thrust
15 Beartooth You block High bonus Low Medium Stunned
50 Dragonfang You evade High bonus Low penalty Low Medium Stunned

*Dual Wield
44 Hypnotic Darkness Reflection High bonus Medium Medium Stunned
(25 Reflection You parry Low bonus Low bonus Low Medium)"



" Post by Sivle » Jun 14, 2016 07:46


Well, according to official patch notes, rangers and nightshades NEVER got the stun component on ice storm. So this cannot be a proof, that Mythic did not give the stun effect to all CD classes with 1.62. I know that side stun on ice storm for stealthers was live before ToA release, because I was leveling a autotrain ranger twink that time who was running high CD spec - but that's no proof either.

However, I found this ranger guide from 2002, which clearly states, that Ice Storm was a stunning side positional for stealthers:
.....
Bank 3 - styles
Behind /stick
Snow Shower (Slow)
Gale (Dot)
Side /stick
Copperhead (slow)/ IceStorm (stun)
Viper’s bite / Copper Head (slow)/ Tempest (Dot)
Blank / Viper’s bite /Copperhead (slow)
Stealth / Stealth / Viper’s bite

.....

Use from the side:

Lvl 18 Ice Storm Medium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit"
 
Last edited:

Dstap21

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Dont see it changing and after months and months of asking nothing has been done so i dont know why you waste so much time. but i appreciate your effort..
if it was for a class that didnt have stealth it would be looked at more im sure.. we stealthers get no love to op :)
 

Slap

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What happens if ranger gets side stun? Let’s just toy with the idea that the devs actually would consider a balance change on this.

Would we see a boom in ranger pop? Would rangers become the best archer? Will melee rangers be able to kill stuff solo?

Stuns are an integral part of any class in terms of realm balance, spec, play style, character setup etc. Competitively as a stealther, stuns are very important. That's why stealthers in every realm were given access to one or even multiple non reactionary stuns. To have this removed gimps hib stealthers in several different situations/environments. On paper, it forces players to go pierce and wait for an evade to stun a single target (rangers have it especially rough with only evade 3) while also locking out anyone wanting to utilize blades weapons/specialization versus anything that has access to stun. (90% of melees) That is why people who play them are so adamant about this discussion. There's a reason why Mythic implemented it.

As someone who has played assassins for 15+ years I can say this change severely limits the gameplay of hib stealthers and really should be restored. Now that ample evidence shows that it did exist, I hope that the devs can see it was always Mythic's intention to give hib stealthers something to counterbalance the many powerful stuns given to Alb and Mid stealthers (minst instant stun, dragonfang, scout's slam, 7s dual wield stun, and hunter rear stun). I hope we can move on and play our classes as they were regardless of the usual public opinion being supportive of any sneak nerf and the mentality of "not my class, nerf good."
 

Cadebrennus

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Stuns are an integral part of any class in terms of realm balance, spec, play style, character setup etc. Competitively as a stealther, stuns are very important. That's why stealthers in every realm were given access to one or even multiple non reactionary stuns. To have this removed gimps hib stealthers in several different situations/environments. On paper, it forces players to go pierce and wait for an evade to stun a single target (rangers have it especially rough with only evade 3) while also locking out anyone wanting to utilize blades weapons/specialization versus anything that has access to stun. (90% of melees) That is why people who play them are so adamant about this discussion. There's a reason why Mythic implemented it.

As someone who has played assassins for 15+ years I can say this change severely limits the gameplay of hib stealthers and really should be restored. Now that ample evidence shows that it did exist, I hope that the devs can see it was always Mythic's intention to give hib stealthers something to counterbalance the many powerful stuns given to Alb and Mid stealthers (minst instant stun, dragonfang, scout's slam, 7s dual wield stun, and hunter rear stun). I hope we can move on and play our classes as they were regardless of the usual public opinion being supportive of any sneak nerf and the mentality of "not my class, nerf good."
Don't forget the Left Axe evade stun ;)

Very useful even on my 2h Axe SB
 

naezgul

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Well, the debate is now officially over, since I've found a source the devs themselves like to quote as gospel (the Ranger TL).

Thanks for the words of encouragement. My main goal here is not to make Rangers OP (this won't affect much solo) but to make them more useful in groups (all types) like Scouts and Hunters who have anytime or positional stuns.

I also want to try to get people to think differently about the classes that they play, not just Archers. By limiting themselves and pigeonholing their characters they miss out on a vast variety of play value that this game has intrinsically. If the devs actually wanted to limit people, then they wouldn't have included the spec system or added the RA system. Sure some things are more effective than others in specific situations, but the game gets boring when everyone plays in a homogenous style with homogenous characters.
Aren’t class team leaders (TL) paying players giving their input for the betterment of the class?
 

Aph

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Stuns are an integral part of any class in terms of realm balance, spec, play style, character setup etc. Competitively as a stealther, stuns are very important. That's why stealthers in every realm were given access to one or even multiple non reactionary stuns. To have this removed gimps hib stealthers in several different situations/environments. On paper, it forces players to go pierce and wait for an evade to stun a single target (rangers have it especially rough with only evade 3) while also locking out anyone wanting to utilize blades weapons/specialization versus anything that has access to stun. (90% of melees) That is why people who play them are so adamant about this discussion. There's a reason why Mythic implemented it.

As someone who has played assassins for 15+ years I can say this change severely limits the gameplay of hib stealthers and really should be restored. Now that ample evidence shows that it did exist, I hope that the devs can see it was always Mythic's intention to give hib stealthers something to counterbalance the many powerful stuns given to Alb and Mid stealthers (minst instant stun, dragonfang, scout's slam, 7s dual wield stun, and hunter rear stun). I hope we can move on and play our classes as they were regardless of the usual public opinion being supportive of any sneak nerf and the mentality of "not my class, nerf good."
Finally some actual feedback that’s not the drunken ranger himself. I have never played a sneak, so I’m glad someone with experience can vouch for the change having a significant impact. I still believe it’s a tiny niche that would utilise the stun in group settings, but that might change if the stun was there - at least it seems like it reading your comment here.

I hope the devs will consider it since the negative effects (other realms QQ’ing) will be almost non existent apart from here on the forum. And the potential effect broadens the gameplay possibilities of the class which I think is a good thing in perspective of the present spec choices.
 

naezgul

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So all casters should have stun? Like most of the Hib casters? Maybe give animists stun too?
 

Cadebrennus

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So all casters should have stun? Like most of the Hib casters? Maybe give animists stun too?
False equivalency is a bad argument. Come back when you have something to contribute
 

Slap

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So all casters should have stun? Like most of the Hib casters? Maybe give animists stun too?
My counter to that is would it be a good idea to remove slam from the game? Let's round off all the corners. No, it wouldn't because Mythic intended for that to exist when balancing gameplay between the realms. This argument is not with giving classes extra abilities but instead having the classes as they were, as closely in line with keeping the core mechanics of DAoC true.

Think of it in terms of cc classes. Bolt range mez is op, until you factor in giving Mid 4 insta CC's and giving bards instant amnesia. Things like that are all taken into account when balancing a MMORPG, especially one with 0 class mirroring. That's just one balancing decision when in reality every ability that exists was balanced in a way to fit Mythic's vision.
 
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naezgul

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My counter to that is would it be a good idea to remove slam from the game? Let's round off all the corners. No, it wouldn't because Mythic intended for that to exist when balancing gameplay between the realms. This argument is not with giving classes extra abilities but instead having the classes as they were, as closely in line with keeping the core mechanics of DAoC true.

Think of it in terms of cc classes. Bolt range mez is op, until you factor in giving Mid 4 insta CC's and giving bards instant amnesia. Things like that are all taken into account when balancing a MMORPG, especially one with 0 class mirroring. That's just one balancing decision when in reality every ability that exists was balanced in a way to fit Mythic's vision.
Yea, exactly what I was obtusely stating. Classes are unique…so while some may have skill X others may not because Y
 

Cadebrennus

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Yea, exactly what I was obtusely stating. Classes are unique…so while some may have skill X others may not because Y
That's why Mythic gave Hibernia dual wielders (all of them) a side stun. Rear stun and evade stun for Mids' stealthers, anytime stun and evade stun for Albs' stealthers, and evade stun and side stun for Hibs' stealthers. I see some unique mechanics in each. This is why I'm against removing something due to erroneous patch notes when the original developers got the mechanics and balance right the first time (yes I'm aware that not everything in other cases was perfect early on in the game).
 

naezgul

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That's why Mythic gave Hibernia dual wielders (all of them) a side stun. Rear stun and evade stun for Mids' stealthers, anytime stun and evade stun for Albs' stealthers, and evade stun and side stun for Hibs' stealthers. I see some unique mechanics in each. This is why I'm against removing something due to erroneous patch notes when the original developers got the mechanics and balance right the first time (yes I'm aware that not everything in other cases was perfect early on in the game).
You keep going on and on about it. It’s your opinion the intent is to have the stun at this patch level(I’m not a believer in things being so strict) others feel differently saying it’s for light tank
 

Cadebrennus

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You keep going on and on about it. It’s your opinion the intent is to have the stun at this patch level(I’m not a believer in things being so strict) others feel differently saying it’s for light tank
Just look at the very first post of this thread. I've updated it with sources from 2002. I don't have to speak to intent when it's something that just flat out existed. Side stun existed on BM, sure, but why bother when you can just use Slam? And before you say it wasn't a trend for BMs, keep in mind that I was playing a Merc back in Classic and had already been using Slam. I played a Merc to 50 and was RvR'ing with him before I created a Ranger in Classic
 

Slap

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You keep going on and on about it. It’s your opinion the intent is to have the stun at this patch level(I’m not a believer in things being so strict) others feel differently saying it’s for light tank
We're not asking for something that didn't exist in this patch set. I think the point that you're missing is that Ice Storm was on Atlas and got removed because of an inconclusive grab bag post, for the necessity of being 1.65 accurate. The argument is not based on opinion, it is that it was in the game at this time based on many sources. It existed on these classes and should also be on a 1.65 server set. As for intent, since there is now hard evidence that it did exist, I really don't rationally see Mythic coding in a side stun they didn't intend or know about for 2 years. It makes alot more sense for Mythic to finally document it because it hadn't been previously and officially bring it to light a bit later in the timeline in response to balance queries.
 
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Lethal

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We're not asking for something that didn't exist in this patch set. I think the point that you're missing is that Ice Storm was on Atlas and got removed because of an inconclusive grab bag post, for the necessity of being 1.65 accurate. The argument is not based on opinion, it is that it was in the game at this time based on many sources. It existed on these classes and should also be on a 1.65 server set. As for intent, since there is now hard evidence that it did exist, I really don't rationally see Mythic coding in a side stun they didn't intend or know about for 2 years. It makes alot more sense for Mythic to finally document it because it hadn't been previously and officially bring it to light a bit later in the timeline in response to balance queries.
I believe you had Ice Storm but what you didn't have was the "Stun" component that was added only for Blademasters!

1659732113493.png
 

Cadebrennus

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I believe you had Ice Storm but what you didn't have was the "Stun" component that was added only for Blademasters!

View attachment 2508
Ice Storm side stun existed for all CD classes in 1.62 - it just wasn't documented for all CD classes in the 1.62 patch notes.


Larian la Quella's Ranger Guide

"(updated May 2002)"

Note: May 2002

"
18Ice StormMedium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit
"



03AUG2002 Wayback Machine's capture of the TL site and his Ranger Guide:


You can download his guide and see that he also lists;

"18 Ice Storm Medium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit"



"Thread from June 2003. A comparison betweeen the three assassin classes. First post, under "stun styles": *Celtic Dual
18 Ice Storm To side of target Medium bonus Medium High Stunned"



Post 1.62...Assasin Classes are not Balanced.​


"Stun Styles
SB:
Level Name Prerequisite
*Axe
8 Thrym's Strength Cleave
(4 Cleave You parry Medium bonus Low Medium Slowed)
34 Midnight Sun Valkyrie's Shield
(21 Valkyrie's Shield You block Medium bonus Low Medium)

*Sword
39 Niord's Fury Frost Cut
(4 Frost Cut You block Low bonus Low Medium Bleeding)

*LA
39 Frosty Gaze Comeback
(18 Comeback You evade Medium bonus Low Low)


Note: SB's have no parry and rarely spec shield

NS:
*Blades
21 Horizon Blade You block Medium bonus Low bonus Low High Stunned
(Have yet to see an NS with a shield)

*Pierce
25 Diamondback You evade Medium bonus Medium bonus Low Medium Stunned

*Celtic Dual
18 Ice Storm To side of target Medium bonus Medium High Stunned

Inf:
*Slash
34 Befuddler Riposte Medium bonus Medium Medium Stunned
(18 Riposte You block Medium bonus Medium bonus Low High)

*Thrust
15 Beartooth You block High bonus Low Medium Stunned
50 Dragonfang You evade High bonus Low penalty Low Medium Stunned

*Dual Wield
44 Hypnotic Darkness Reflection High bonus Medium Medium Stunned
(25 Reflection You parry Low bonus Low bonus Low Medium)"



" Post by Sivle » Jun 14, 2016 07:46


Well, according to official patch notes, rangers and nightshades NEVER got the stun component on ice storm. So this cannot be a proof, that Mythic did not give the stun effect to all CD classes with 1.62. I know that side stun on ice storm for stealthers was live before ToA release, because I was leveling a autotrain ranger twink that time who was running high CD spec - but that's no proof either.

However, I found this ranger guide from 2002, which clearly states, that Ice Storm was a stunning side positional for stealthers:
.....
Bank 3 - styles
Behind /stick
Snow Shower (Slow)
Gale (Dot)
Side /stick
Copperhead (slow)/ IceStorm (stun)
Viper’s bite / Copper Head (slow)/ Tempest (Dot)
Blank / Viper’s bite /Copperhead (slow)
Stealth / Stealth / Viper’s bite

.....

Use from the side:

Lvl 18 Ice Storm Medium fatigue cost, use from side of target, medium bonus damage, short duration stun, medium bonus to hit"
 

Siouxsie

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LOL. C Cadebrennus just give up and join the horde of 30-40 nightshades/rangers that infest DF or Emain and just get easy RPs because.. hib is the easiest mode realm now with 1.65 patch level and 6 relics.

Your ranger is only level 20.. better get him levelled up!
 

Cadebrennus

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LOL. C Cadebrennus just give up and join the horde of 30-40 nightshades/rangers that infest DF or Emain and just get easy RPs because.. hib is the easiest mode realm now with 1.65 patch level and 6 relics.

Your ranger is only level 20.. better get him levelled up!
Obvious troll is obvious
 
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