• Welcome to Atlas Freeshard

    Register using Discord

Let's talk Buff/Charge timers

Wellzy

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2021
Messages
116
Reaction score
88
Realm
Hibernia
.


I wanted to open a post about this subject since most of the discussion so far has been in discord. I think tossing around some ideas and concerns surrounding charges and pots would be beneficial.

Fen has mentioned in Discord there are already discussions internally how to approach Charges and buff timers, so this may be a moot point, but hey.. discussion is never bad.



Right now, the biggest pain point in RvR is managing low 10m buff timers. Barrels are still 20 minutes, however, buff potions (Haste, dmg shield) are 10m.

This also includes buff charges.

Having to constantly juggle your pots and charges to keep everything up is extremely tedious and takes me out of just enjoying the hunt.



My suggestion would be to have a Conc system for Charges. Only allowing 1-3, need to be worn and they just stay on until you die or log.

Or, only allowing 1-3, need to be worn but reverting all the timers back to 20m including pots.

I don’t want this to become a “who has more charge buff” game, so I think there should be restrictions on them, but restricting the time drags down the fun factor.



As a QoL server, I think avoiding anything that can be tedious and frustrating should be a priority.

I like restriction, but not tedium.



Other thoughts? Suggestions?


.
 
Last edited:

Stringer

Member
Joined
10 Feb 2022
Messages
42
Reaction score
22
Realm
Hibernia
Personally I kind of see it as "Comb Buff pots already are the QoL change. The rest is on top."
 

Lygma

New member
Joined
24 Jul 2021
Messages
10
Reaction score
13
I think they mentioned they are going to try a maximum of x2 charge buffs (so pick STRCON/AF/DQ/ACUITY) , they have to be worn , and last until death.
 

Wellzy

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2021
Messages
116
Reaction score
88
Realm
Hibernia
I think they mentioned they are going to try a maximum of x2 charge buffs (so pick STRCON/AF/DQ/ACUITY) , they have to be worn , and last until death.

Yes, this would be my ideal solution. 2 buffs max - must be worn - last until death. Can also use a combat charge, like dmg add or heal charge on 2m cooldown, also must be worn.
 

Cadebrennus

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2021
Messages
286
Reaction score
115
The "must be worn" thing is good and at least a nod towards balance
 

Dong Johnson

New member
Joined
31 Dec 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
11
Realm
Albion
I don’t see this is a QoL issue at all. To me, it is a play style issue first, and a balance issue second. I think the best strategy for buff charge items is to leave them largely as is EXCEPT to add a restriction that effectively forces you to actually template in the item (just as an example, it could look like “if you unequip the item the buff drops.” I’m not saying that’s necessarily how it should be done, it’s just an example).

The reason I say this is because I think that the people who invest the time and effort to farm the necessary rogs etc. to fit an additional charge into their template should get a return on that investment. Realistically, even the best and most expensive top tier templates will only be able to fit… 1 additional charge? MAYBE 2 if the template you’re comparing it to isn’t very good. Why should the people who want to take the extra time to build the best possible template not have an avenue to do that because a “charge limit” was imposed in the name of QoL?

If you can fit the extra charge, you get to use the extra charge. If you can’t, you don’t.
 

Wellzy

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2021
Messages
116
Reaction score
88
Realm
Hibernia
I don’t see this is a QoL issue at all. To me, it is a play style issue first, and a balance issue second. I think the best strategy for buff charge items is to leave them largely as is EXCEPT to add a restriction that effectively forces you to actually template in the item (just as an example, it could look like “if you unequip the item the buff drops.” I’m not saying that’s necessarily how it should be done, it’s just an example).

The reason I say this is because I think that the people who invest the time and effort to farm the necessary rogs etc. to fit an additional charge into their template should get a return on that investment. Realistically, even the best and most expensive top tier templates will only be able to fit… 1 additional charge? MAYBE 2 if the template you’re comparing it to isn’t very good. Why should the people who want to take the extra time to build the best possible template not have an avenue to do that because a “charge limit” was imposed in the name of QoL?

If you can fit the extra charge, you get to use the extra charge. If you can’t, you don’t.


I can't fully agree with this because of two major reasons.

1) Time investment : The "time to 50" has been significantly reduced compared to the actual classic experience. This is of course because people don't have the kind of time to grind to 50 as they did back in 2001. Leveling is important, and it's part of the game, but the suffocating rate that exp was back then just does not translate to the playerbase today. I think this would also apply to the "Gear Grind" at lvl 50. Once you hit 50, you don't want to have to spend a large about of time grinding orbs and gold to get your character to a competitive level. It needs to exist as part of the game, but it needs to be casual friendly.

2) Power gap for new players : Longevity of a server can suffer from a large power gap with new players. With no limit on charges, a new 50 would be at such a disadvantage between gear and realm rank, it would detract players from rolling new toons or new players starting the server knowing they are going to get crushed by Orbed to the teeth rr8 players.





.
 
Last edited:

Dong Johnson

New member
Joined
31 Dec 2021
Messages
20
Reaction score
11
Realm
Albion
I can't fully agree with this because of two major reasons.

1) Time investment : The "time to 50" has been significantly reduced compared to the actual classic experience. This is of course because people don't have the kind of time to grind to 50 as they did back in 2001. Leveling is important, and it's part of the game, but the suffocate rate that exp was back then just does not translate to the playerbase today. I think this would also apply to the "Gear Grind" at lvl 50. Once you hit 50, you don't want to have to spend a large about of time grinding orbs and gold to get your character to a competitive level. It needs to exist as part of the game, but it needs to be casual friendly.

2) Power gap for new players : Longevity of a server can suffer from a large power gap with new players. With no limit on charges, a new 50 would be at such a disadvantage between gear and realm rank, it would detract players from rolling new toons or new players starting the server knowing they are going to get crushed by Orbed to the teeth rr8 players.





.

Valid points, but I think you’re drastically underestimating how difficult fitting multiple charges into a temp is going to be, especially with a hard utility cap on rogs. Look at the str/con cloak charge on alb as an example. This is one of the reasons people push so hard for the “let me use charges from my inventory” route, which is the WORST option in my mind because that forces new players to farm a bunch of extra items on top of the ones already in their temp.

At the end of the day, I support any system that limits the charges a person can use to the items they actually wear. I just think a better system is to let re-use timers, duration, and templating skill naturally dictate how many charges any given player/class has access to at a time as opposed to imposing an artificial cap.
 

Jabstar

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2021
Messages
92
Reaction score
53
Reminder: there's a a recent change to the suggestion forum - if you like a suggestion - upvote it with the arrow to the right of the Thread starter.

1652476664299.png
 

Zyfrig

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2021
Messages
406
Reaction score
286
Power gap for new players is a real issue. If a new guy doesn't feel like he can compete with reasonable effort, the longevity of the server is in danger.


I personally don't see the necessity to wear the item for stat buff charges if they will be limited in number.

Effectively it will result in pigeonholing templates because some items will simply be a must have. Also, templates will have to be designed from early on to potentially fit those items in if you're not looking to do it all over once you happen to get your hands on a charge item as you progress.
Additionally, you would be locked into your specific choice of charges at that time, potentially forcing even a redo of your template should you later on decide you want out a different combination.

I don't think it's necessary and the cost outweighs any real benefit. After all, it doesn't matter how many stat charges you have in your inventory, you can only ever use two anyway, just like anyone else.


I do see the value in having to wear active charges though.
 

naezgul

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2021
Messages
479
Reaction score
184
Power gap for new players is a real issue. If a new guy doesn't feel like he can compete with reasonable effort, the longevity of the server is in danger.


I personally don't see the necessity to wear the item for stat buff charges if they will be limited in number.

Effectively it will result in pigeonholing templates because some items will simply be a must have. Also, templates will have to be designed from early on to potentially fit those items in if you're not looking to do it all over once you happen to get your hands on a charge item as you progress.
Additionally, you would be locked into your specific choice of charges at that time, potentially forcing even a redo of your template should you later on decide you want out a different combination.

I don't think it's necessary and the cost outweighs any real benefit. After all, it doesn't matter how many stat charges you have in your inventory, you can only ever use two anyway, just like anyone else.


I do see the value in having to wear active charges though.
Simply a way for the elite and those with lots of time to add to their edge over others
 

fastndanja

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2021
Messages
25
Reaction score
24
Can anyone make an argument for how charges/buff potions enhance the RvR experience for the server? The only argument I've understood is how they help people in PvE (people who solo or can't for whatever reason find buffers to group with). I can see how it eases the pain of PvE w/o much detriment, but it certainly hurts class balance in RvR.

Allow all buff potions/charges in PvE and disable them in RvR zones.
 

Zyfrig

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2021
Messages
406
Reaction score
286
Can anyone make an argument for how charges/buff potions enhance the RvR experience for the server? The only argument I've understood is how they help people in PvE (people who solo or can't for whatever reason find buffers to group with). I can see how it eases the pain of PvE w/o much detriment, but it certainly hurts class balance in RvR.

Allow all buff potions/charges in PvE and disable them in RvR zones.


It's especially significant in smallman encounters where the power gap between having a buffer (and healer) or not having one is often overwhelming. There's so many sub-optimal class combinations that would struggle to get anything done vs fully buffed opponents.

For instance a Skald + Shaman vs a stealther duo without buffpots and charges would not even be a fight really. Sure, the stealthers are not really 'supposed' to take such fights, but at least with buffpots/charges they stand a chance if the Mid duo doesn't play it right. They can also buy more time for other players to help turn the tide. The engagement becomes more interesting for the weaker side.

Overall it just makes players feel like it is worth the effort to actually go out and RvR even without buffs/heals, which is something that is absolutely to be encouraged if this server wants to live a long and prosperous life.



Viable, low-entry, casual end-game RvR is the server's engine.
 

computer

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2022
Messages
29
Reaction score
6
Honestly to make it convinient and usefull, make buff charges and barrels same 20min Duration. 10 min is way to short on classic maps with all the running to amg. I would also enable the charges to be possible from backpack, all the muling around is just senceless and and time wasting. Only active dd charges or debuff/dot charges should be only usable when worn.
There should be also recharge items for orbs.
 

fastndanja

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2021
Messages
25
Reaction score
24
It's especially significant in smallman encounters where the power gap between having a buffer (and healer) or not having one is often overwhelming. There's so many sub-optimal class combinations that would struggle to get anything done vs fully buffed opponents.

For instance a Skald + Shaman vs a stealther duo without buffpots and charges would not even be a fight really. Sure, the stealthers are not really 'supposed' to take such fights, but at least with buffpots/charges they stand a chance if the Mid duo doesn't play it right. They can also buy more time for other players to help turn the tide. The engagement becomes more interesting for the weaker side.

Overall it just makes players feel like it is worth the effort to actually go out and RvR even without buffs/heals, which is something that is absolutely to be encouraged if this server wants to live a long and prosperous life.



Viable, low-entry, casual end-game RvR is the server's engine.
Is that not the point of grouping with a buffer? The group with the buffer/healer isn't able to go invisible.

I think your argument in fact proves the opposite point you're trying to make. If you're in a sub-optimal group w/o a buffer it can't be low-entry when you have to have access to buff charges to compete in visible small man skirmishes. Don't those only drop off of raids?

No offense intended obviously I'm not trying to come off as too harsh but that is my opinion.
 

Zyfrig

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2021
Messages
406
Reaction score
286
Is that not the point of grouping with a buffer? The group with the buffer/healer isn't able to go invisible.

I think your argument in fact proves the opposite point you're trying to make. If you're in a sub-optimal group w/o a buffer it can't be low-entry when you have to have access to buff charges to compete in visible small man skirmishes. Don't those only drop off of raids?

No offense intended obviously I'm not trying to come off as too harsh but that is my opinion.

Not sure I'm getting your point here. You're saying buff charges aren't low-entry because they drop from raids?

You can buy them with orbs, they will be low-entry enough for any player to attain reliably. Just like templates and pots.


In any case my example was just illustrative and the visible/stealth aspect is completely irrelevant. Being in an underdog position on any class is more forgiving when you have access to buffs, resulting in a smaller barrier for entry for casual RvR, especially on classes that have no access to buffs.

If you want a more diverse and active smallman/solo population, buffpots and charges make sense.
 

Similar threads

Top