• Welcome to Atlas Freeshard

    Register using Discord

Dual-Wield vs. Left Axe mechanics + sneaks/LT tricks

Naylo

Atlas Team
Joined
13 Aug 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
27
The mechanics for DW on Hib and Alb are very different from LA on Mid:

Dual-Wield:
>> Equipping an off-hand weapon on Hib/Alb is a flat add-damage without any penalty, except loosing the chance to block if you equip a shield instead (around 10-15% with a small shield and 0 spec points in shield).

base formula >> chance to swing offhand weapon = 25% + .68 * CD/DW spec

Which means, if you equip 2 weapons, your main hand will always do normal damage, and you roll at each swing for a % chance to also swing your off-hand which will deal 50% damage of your base unstyled damage for that weapon. IF you succeed on the roll to swing the off-hand, you still have the miss chance for that weapon (usually 15-20%, depending on your weaponskill's value).
>> You start with 25% chance to swing your off-hand, up to 59% at 50 composite spec in DW, and 69% at 65 composite DW (50+11+rr5)


Left-Axe:
>> Equipping an off-hand weapon on Midgard lowers your overall damage, but you can increase that damage "back to normal" by spending spec points in LA.

base formula >> modified damage = base damage * (.625 + .0034 * LA spec)

Which means, if you equip 2 weapons on Midgard, you lower your overall damage on both weapons immediately. When you then spend SpecPoints in LA, you increase your overall damage for both hands. The difference with DW is that you don't have to roll a % chance to try to swing your off-hand, and you also have the same miss chance from hitting unstyled (usually 15-20%, depending on your weaponskill's value).
>> You start with around 65% damage on your main hand, which goes up to 80 at 50 composite LA, and around 85% with 65 composite LA.
>> See the table below to have an idea (updated values from Fenyn):

1635314840296.png



For all realms :
Your overall swing speed will be calculated by averaging the 2 weapon speeds. A faster weapon in your off-hand will enable you to hit faster, but each hit of your left hand will yield a lower damage than if you have a slow off-hand weapon. Faster attack speed might compensate for damage by allowing you to use reaction style (after evade) more consistently.

For sneaks :
>> On midgard at low-level (e.g. 24), the shadowzerk can hit quite hard with 2 weapons, but looses the high alpha from PA. A critblade will hit harder with a 2h weapon using CS styles like garrote, and as soon as you switch to 2 weapons, you will gimp your damage.
- An option is to use 2 weapons only once after a 2h PA, with fast weapons, to apply 1-2 poisons before going back to your 2h weapon.
- The other option is to stick to your 2h and use the /switch macro to swap weapons and apply poisons as fast as possible (/macro dot /switch 2h 4 = switches your 2h for the weapon in slot 4 which has a dot on it, for example)

>> on hib/alb, at low level, your off-hand will rarely hit (30% chance for a character with 21 CS and 10-15 composite DW), but your main hand will still normal damage, and you can apply poisons a bit more easily than a midgardian critblade with a 2h weapon.

For zerkers :
>> while XPing at low level, you might want to stick to a 2h weapon, until you reach 30-40 composite LA spec to have consistent high DPS. For RvR however, having 2 weapons might still be better because you can bypass pulsing bladeturns more easily and still do high damage, and swing faster between pulses. Also, for both RvR and XPing, LA style usually have a higher growth rate - you'll have to test to see what you like most.

For BM/Mercs :
>> while XPing and in RvR, you're probably gucchi with 2 weapons all the time since your main-hand will do normal damage, and you're going to have a higher spec than an infiltrator/nightshade and thus a quite higher chance to swing your off-hand.

sources :
talsyria
uth2 forum
an old forum

PS : disease = snare 30% + debuff ST along with -50% on heals on diseased target (including RAs like IP) >> use that for PA and your enemies will have a harder time escaping :p
 

Attachments

  • 1634206972741.png
    1634206972741.png
    4.3 KB · Views: 261
Last edited:

Jabstar

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
29
EDIT: as to not polute the forum with missinformation - i'll remove what i said! Saroi hereunder explains it all!
 
Last edited:

Saroi

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
46
in your OH Swing chance example, you say 59% chance at 50 comp spec
i might be wrong but i think that should be 51%? (25+50x0.68)
and the 2nd example at 65 comp level would be 61.2%

where did either you or me go wrong? :D

none of the links work when you click them (you can copy paste them ofcourse)
The way you are calculating it, it will end up as 75x0,68 if you type it in your order in the calculator which will end up at 51%. You can simply go 50x0,68 = 34% + 25% = 59%.

Same as in 65+25 = 90x0,68 = 61,2%.

Should be 65x0,68 = 44,2% + 25% = 69,2%

The 25% base chance are flat and shouldn't be "mixed" up with adding to the cd/dw spec skill.
 

Jabstar

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
29
holy shit i should be ashamed. I will punish myself harshly for not following the simple math rules.
I just put in the the windows calculator and thought the calculator would handle the math for me! i should use ( and ) when using the calculator i guess. Thanks!
 

Saroi

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
46
Which means, if you equip 2 weapons, your main hand will always do normal damage, and you roll at each swing for a % chance to also swing your off-hand which will deal 50% damage of your base unstyled damage for that weapon. IF you succeed on the roll to swing the off-hand, you still have the miss chance for that weapon (usually 15-20%, depending on your weaponskill's value).


Which means, if you equip 2 weapons on Midgard, you lower your overall damage on both weapons immediately. When you then spend SpecPoints in LA, you increase your overall damage for both hands. The difference with DW is that you don't have to roll a % chance to try to swing your off-hand, and you also have the same miss chance from hitting unstyled (usually 15-20%, depending on your weaponskill's value).

PS : disease = snare 30% + debuff ST along with -50% on heals on diseased target (including RAs like IP) >> use that for PA and your enemies will have a harder time escaping :p
1, That is not completely accurate. When it comes to styles, then yes. Your Mainhand will always hit and your offhand has a chance to hit. However, when it comes to unstyled autoattack then cd/dw has it that there is a chance to hit with mainhand only, chance to hit with offhand only or a chance to hit with both. This means you can have offhand hits without mainhand hits. Ofc this is not common today anymore with better endu pots but back in the day, without much endu you did end up having some unstyled attacks. LA however will always have Main and offhand hit the same time regardless of styled or unstyled.


3, Disease does not reduce the healing of IP. IP will heal 100% HP regardless of Disease. Same with Lifetap heals, Ment/Friar HoT, Spreadheal. They all heal the full value and ignore disease.
 
Last edited:

Primer

New member
Joined
13 Oct 2021
Messages
1
Reaction score
5
Realm
Hibernia
So is Doublefrost op? or play inf?
 

Saroi

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
46
So is Doublefrost op? or play inf?
Not sure what you mean by OP. This would be something that can't be fully answered, since atm it is lv 24 testing. But if you are referring to the high amount of damage that SB could do with just spamming Doublefrost, then no.

Patch 1.65 is the base of the Server. In Patch 1.62(Also known as the LA Nerf patch), LA styles got their damage lowered or rather fixed.
 

Cadebrennus

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2021
Messages
150
Reaction score
54
From The Drunken Ranger’s Guide to Drunken Celtic Dual Wielding


When both hands swing the offhand speed does average with the mainhand, styled or not. However, the parser also showed me that the swing speed difference was a much smaller number than everyone assumed. All weapon swings were done styled. I used the Blades side style because it is a style that is currently available to me that uses the least amount of endurance, giving me more swings per endurance bar with Tireless1.

First, the screenshots of the parser, along with the equivalent data from Charplan, which has the swing speed numbers pretty damn close, if not exact. I am looking only at the first number in the Charplan speed window, just to make things simple. It gives a range.

4.1 mainhand, no offhand. 3.7 second actual swing speed showing on both the parser and the Charplan
dAAmgK.jpg



4.1 mainhand, 2.5 offhand. Raw average between 4.1 and 2.5 is 3.3 seconds, so when both hands swing the delay for my character should be at 3.04. Because I'm using a really low Celtic Dual Spec (1+4 at level 24), my offhand swing rate was less than stellar. However, it did show a lowered average swing speed at 3.4 seconds due to my low offhand swing rate. If I had 50+15 CD it would be somewhere between 3.04 and 3.4. I ran this test twice and confirmed it. Offhand does influence mainhand only when both hands swing, even on a styled swing.
sE3hhn.jpg


I also ran the tests with a fast mainhand and slow offhand and got similar results. My recommendation from this point forward is to never have a mainhand that is faster than your offhand.

Now, here's where it gets interesting. I did some calculations assuming level 50, with 50+15 Celtic Dual, and also used the numbers from the weapon speed calculator from Charplan, assuming a Phoenix server fully buffed Ranger (pots and charges, including 17% pot haste, not Druid or Pathfinding etc.)

4.1 spd weapon = 2.23 weapon delay (slowest Blades mainhand available not counting raid weapons or crafted)
2.5 spd weapon = 1.5 weapon delay (calculator says a 1.6 weapon is optimal, this is the fastest Blades weapon in Hib, and is an offhand weapon)
3.1 spd weapon = 1.68 weapon delay (this is the slowest Blades offhand in Hib that I know of right now)

Now, this is where we compare the benefits and drawbacks of slow offhand vs a fast offhand with the slowest dropped mainhand (not counting dropped raid weapons.)

4.1 spd mh & 2.5 spd oh = 3.3 average delay before stats = 1.79 weapon delay after buffed stats
4.1 spd mh & 3.1 spd oh = 3.6 average delay before stats = 1.95 weapon delay after buffed stats
As you can see the averaged weapon delay between the two is only 0.16 seconds. The DPS difference however, is 0.18 (as seen above).

Assuming both hands swing:
A 2.5 speed offhand gives you a 0.44 speed boost - That's an efficiency boost of +19%
A 3.1 speed offhand gives you a 0.28 speed boost - That's an efficiency boost of +12%
That is a difference of 0.16 seconds between using a 3.1 offhand or a 2.5 offhand, with a 7% efficiency difference.

Now, plugging this all into Celtic Dual's and Dual Wield's actual offhand chance to swing we get the following over time, assuming 50+15 Celtic Dual or Dual Wield and a 69% chance to swing the offhand:
A 2.5 speed offhand will, over time, give you a 0.30 second speed boost
A 3.1 speed offhand will, over time, give you a 0.19 second speed boost
This is a difference of 0.11 seconds over time between the two offhand choices. Not very significant in my opinion.

Consider that a 3.1 weapon swinging at 1.68 dps and a 2.5 weapon swinging at 1.5 dps is a difference of 0.18 dps, the slower 3.1 has the very slight advantage of 0.18 damage per second. Now consider the benefit of a fast offhand delay which is 0.11 seconds, the slower offhand still does more damage at near cap speed.

I stand with my original assessment that a slow offhand is the way to go when fully buffed, due to better offhand damage. Because it is unstyled damage, you need to squeeze out every bit of dps you can.
 

Jabstar

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
29
I won't advertise my swingspeed calculator in 20 threads, but people that are interested, please try it
see if the result matches what it should be - link in signature

this is the formula used:
SPD * ( 1 – ( Quickness – 60 ) / 500) ) * ( 1 – Haste%)

you calculate that against main hand and offhand. then your final swingspeed is (mhresult + ohresult) /2
 
Top